The Gap Of Getting From 20 Transactions To 40

Shawna Bellendir: I have two other agents right now and growing. We'll probably do somewhere close to $30 million as a brokerage, so taking them from the next level but teaching them the exact same things about branding themselves. When they come to me and they're like, “What should my domain name be?” I'm like, “It really doesn't matter, but what do you want to be known as? How do you want people to see you? What is going to trigger in their heads that reminds them of you? What are those things that brand you to grow? Whether you're with me forever or whether you're with every other brokerage under the sun, it doesn't matter. It's about you and your brand and what you portray to the community.” 

Tim Chermak: This is The Platform Marketing Show, where we interview the most creative and ambitious real estate agents in the country, dissect their local marketing strategy, and get the behind the scenes scoop on how they're generating listing leads and warm referrals. We'll dive into the specifics of what marketing campaigns are working for them, how much they're spending on those campaigns, and figure out how they have perfected what we call The Platform Marketing Strategy. This is your host, Tim Chermak. I'm the founder and CEO of Platform. I love marketing and I talk too much, so let's dive in.  

Tim Chermak: Hey guys, it's Tim Chermak. Welcome back to another episode of The Platform Marketing Show. I'm here today with Shawna Bellendir and Daryl Korinek. Guys, welcome to the show. 

Shawna Bellendir: Thanks for having us, Tim. 

Daryl Korinek: Thanks for having us, thank you. 

Tim Chermak: They're in the Denver, Colorado area. We were just chatting before the show and Shawna's another one of those examples of a real estate agent who's pretty much doubled her production since signing up for Platform. When we say doubled, I always think it's important to offer some context here. It's not like she sold two homes last year and now she's at four. She's essentially grown from about 20 transactions a year to almost will hit 40 transactions this year. To me, that's the point that most agents don't get to. 

Tim Chermak: There's a lot of agents who can go from five to 10. Maybe their first year they do five, the next year they do 10. Technically, that's doubling. Well, congratulations. A lot of agents do 10 and then they eventually get to 20 after they've been in the business for a couple years. They start getting referrals. Maybe some of the buyers they helped a couple years ago, they become a move-up buy. You might get a listing and a buy a site out of it. There's a pretty natural, I think, organic path to get from 10 to 20, frankly, without any marketing. 

Tim Chermak: If you're just a good agent and you're providing good service and you're getting positive word of mouth and testimonials and referrals, I think most agents can get to 10, 15, 20 deals a year without investing in a bunch of marketing. It's that next step, that next gap in your business of getting from 20 to eventually 30 to 40 that you have done in the last couple of years, that's that leap that most agents never take. Once you get to 30, 40, you realize going from 40 to 50 or 60 is really just a mathematical difference. There's nothing structural that needs to change the way that going from 10 to 20 to 30, things have to change because that's the point that you start running out of time. 

Tim Chermak: That's what I want to dive into in this episode, is how you've made that leap in your business of going from 20 transactions a year to this year you'll hit pretty much 40. Daryl is with you as your partner. He's a loan officer. He's also working with Platform. He's been in the business, Daryl, you said for 15 years now. 

Daryl Korinek: Correct, about 15 years. 

Tim Chermak: You're really almost the more experienced of the two in the real estate industry. You've seen a big picture perspective on how the industry has changed. 

Daryl Korinek: I've seen it change several different times in several different ways. This new, “Hey, we are slowing down a lot this year for 2022,” that's nothing new. It's cyclical. It's just a roller coaster and prepare as the roller coaster comes down a little bit for when it goes back up. That's what we're doing now, really positioning our businesses so that we are ready to take advantage of the roller coaster as it comes back up. 

Tim Chermak: How did you guys first hear about Platform? Let's just take a step back. You've been in the PlatFam, I think, for about three years now, you said. Before we dive into the growth story of how you made that leap, Shawna, of getting from 20 transactions a year, I said, to 40 in, by the way, a hyper competitive market in Denver, Colorado. There's been tons of price appreciation there. 

Tim Chermak: A lot of people think, “It must be easy to be a realtor in a booming market like Denver or Austin or Boise or whatever.” Honestly, it's often the opposite because it's so competitive. It's often harder to build a business there because there's so many realtors and so much marketing dollars being spent to acquire clients that your growth in a crazy booming market like Denver is honestly even more impressive than if it's some agent in a small town somewhere where no other agents even have a Facebook account. That's really impressive. 

Shawna Bellendir: We're really excited about where we've gone. I saw you speak at a Sellstate conference. My brokerage is part of a franchise of Sellstate Altitude Realty and we have an industry leaders conference every October, mind you, in Naples. You were there speaking and everything that you said hit home to me. You talk a lot about the high-hanging fruit and just branding yourself. It was almost one of those tearful moments. I feel like, “Yes!” Nobody talks about this. 

Shawna Bellendir: Everybody talks about buy leads or follow up with your leads or [yes, you] sphere, whatever the case may be, but nobody ever talks about branding as a realtor. They don't talk about you as yourself and becoming that in the community or in the market that you're in. When you talked about that, it was just, “Thank you. This is exactly what I've been thinking and building for the last three and a half years of my business. I'm ready to take the next step.” 

Shawna Bellendir: You seem to have that where when I started real estate, I did not have a Facebook page, not even a personal Facebook account. It was all like, “Oh, dear God. What do I do?” I knew social media was the way of the future because, obviously, our children were that way, but it scared the crap out of me to say the least. I just took class after class after class on, at least, Facebook to do my own personal page when I first started, and then hearing you speak and talk about the whole retargeting, I knew that was the next level. I also knew that doing 20 transactions a year, I did not have the time to do it myself. I needed to invest in something. 

Shawna Bellendir: We had actually invested in another program, CINC. We were paying an exorbitant amount of money with that program at the time. I had a team of five agents and they weren't producing, they weren't following up with leads. I was paying for everything. I was bleeding money at that point at that time. In November, after I came back from the conference, I was just like, “This has got to change.” I canceled the CINC, I gave Platform a call, and I'm like, “This is what we're going to do.” I blew up my team and I said, “No more building everybody else right now. I'm just going to focus on building myself.” Not only did we do that, but then seven months later, we decided to open up our own brokerage and then grow the brokerage from there. 

Shawna Bellendir: It has 100% been about branding and branding myself as a realtor. My 40 transactions are not my team and not my brokerage, that's me. With the brokerage, I have two other agents right now and growing. We'll probably do somewhere close to $30 million as a brokerage, so taking them from the next level but teaching them the exact same things about branding themselves. When they come to me and they're like, “What should my domain name be?” I'm like, “It really doesn't matter, but what do you want to be known as? How do you want people to see you? What is going to trigger in their heads that reminds them of you? What are those things that brand you to grow? Whether you're with me forever or whether you're with every other brokerage under the sun, it doesn't matter. It's about you and your brand and what you portray to the community.” 

Tim Chermak: I remember that conference where you saw me speak, actually. It was a Sellstate event in October. The reason I remember it is I was flying out to Charlotte, North Carolina right after I gave that talk. I was flying up to see a buddy there and we were going to watch a Timberwolves-Hornets basketball game there. I was going to hang out with one of my childhood friends who had recently moved to Charlotte. He'd got a high level corporate job at Bank of America at their corporate headquarters in Charlotte. I had a flight booked right after I gave that talk at that Sellstate conference. So many people came up and talked to me afterward during a Q and A thing. Maybe you were one of those people, I honestly don't remember. It was three years ago. 

Shawna Bellendir: Probably. 

Tim Chermak: I was 10 seconds away from missing my flight. I remember I had to sprint through the airport and I was absolutely just hauling butt to get to Fort Myers Airport because I knew, “Oh my God, I'm about to miss this flight just because I'm stupid and I stayed here too long talking to people.” It ended up working out because you've now been with Platform for three years. Now, we're talking on a podcast episode about your success story. I will always remember that day. It's probably the closest I've ever come to just missing a flight because I didn't manage time well. That's awesome. 

Tim Chermak: As you said, so I actually didn't know this before the show, that you were working with Commissions, Inc., CINC, before Platform. Could you compare and contrast for me? What is the difference in the marketing philosophy or the marketing approach of a leads program or a lead service like CINC compared to how we think about marketing at Platform? I know how I would answer that question, but I'm always curious how you as the actual realtor, or Daryl, you as the loan officer, how would you think about that? I know a lot of realtors too. They'll hit up a loan officer and they'll say, “Hey, pay for my CINC,” or “Pay for my Zillow leads,” or pay for whatever. 

Shawna Bellendir: It's pretty much how it went. 

Tim Chermak: It's just a line item that you pay for. It's like you're just buying leads. That's the phrase. I'm curious how your guys' experience was with a company like CINC. I don't mean to pick on CINC in particular. Honestly, I think pretty much every company out there is the same. Whether it's CINC, Ylopo, BoomTown, all of them are more or less the same. What was your experience with a leads program like that compared to how we think about marketing now at Platform? 

Shawna Bellendir: I think the biggest thing comes down to branding. We're absolutely probably the worst to talk about follow-up with any sort of leads. We are the epitome of most realtors. We do not follow up with leads, period. We do not. To say we want to, yes, we want to, but I'd have to even look up our login for Platform or for any other lead service because we don't follow up with them. If they're not wanting to work with us, then we don't want to work with them. With CINC, it was you spend at least an hour plus on the phone every day, once in the morning, once in the afternoon, and you just call, follow up, text, send the emails, and you get the F you then you get all of the junk.

Tim Chermak: “How did you get my phone number? Where did you get my email?” 

Shawna Bellendir: Yes, constantly. I get why my agents on my team at the time hated it or weren't doing it because it stunk. It's so rejecting. That's the last thing we need in this business because it's so psychological. Anyway, we're constantly putting out fires. We're constantly doing the things to smooth everything and make everybody happy. “This should be a great time. You're buying a house.” 

Tim Chermak: Being a realtor is already like an emotional roller coaster where you never know what fire you're going to have to put out every day when you wake up. The last thing you need is also to be stressed out about how you're following up with leads. 

Shawna Bellendir: Exactly. 

Daryl Korinek: One of the things that I saw when we had the conference this last couple weeks ago, when we had that metaphor of the lighthouse and the tugboat. What we're doing now is lighthouse type work where we're branding so people come to us for their questions and if they want the help. With doing leads, we were tugboats. We had to grind. “Your grind session this morning is nine to 10. This afternoon, it's three to four. This evening, it's six to seven.” It was just a grind, tugboat grind. It wasn't fun. It wasn't super productive. 

Daryl Korinek: When a realtor would come to me and say, “Hey, let's do this together. You pay for it. It makes sense for the lender to talk to the person first. You grind in the morning from nine to 10,” they wanted me to do the tugboat stuff, so then I would transfer over to them the things that they really wanted, a hot lead or someone who was really interested in them to buy a house. It was, again, a nightmare with that process. 

Shawna Bellendir: Now, with Facebook and the retargeting, we're not worried about filming video either, which is the goal for 2023. 

Daryl Korinek: That's going to change. You heard it here first, it's being recorded. 

Tim Chermak: That's a pledge to Carly that they will film more videos in 2023. 

Shawna Bellendir: They will. Carly knows it. We've already hit her up, be prepared. I sent her one yesterday.

Tim Chermak: By the way, for those listening, so I know there's obviously tons of agents that are listening to this podcast that aren't currently working with Platform. When we mentioned Carly, Carly Peterson is their account manager who works at Platform. That's who they connect with regularly. Carly is overseeing all of the campaigns and she's also their accountability partner with, “Hey, we have to create new content. Have you filmed this video yet?” When I say that Carly is going to hold you accountable in 2023, it's public now on the podcast. Carly can reference this episode the whole rest of the year. 

Daryl Korinek: We even tried to pay her extra money to be mean to us. Don't be nice. Don't ask, tell. Here's money, tell us what to do. Tell us. “No, I want this. No, you are sending this to me today, period. It'll be to me by noon.” 

Tim Chermak: I was actually chatting with our team right after the Mastermind and we stumbled on this metaphor of getting a gym membership at a big box franchise like, I don't know, LA fitness or whatever, versus a personal trainer. Everyone knows that a personal trainer is obviously more expensive. You're paying per session and whatever. What are you really paying for when you pay for a personal trainer? 

Tim Chermak: I know right now it's that time of year, December, January, where everyone's making their New Year's resolutions for weight loss or muscle growth or how many times they want to go to the gym or whatever. When you think about what you're really paying for with a gym membership, I'm literally paying to rent the machines or to rent the squat rack or to rent the dumbbells on the rack, whatever. You're just paying to rent access to the capital equipment that the gym has invested in. That's it. All the work is up to you. 

Tim Chermak: When you pay for a personal trainer, people think of it as, “They're giving me expertise on how to have correct form.” Maybe that was true in 1992 when YouTube didn't exist, but if you really think about it, you don't have any excuses now to not have proper form on bench press or not have proper form when you're squatting or whatever because all of that information is out there for free. 

Tim Chermak: If you really think about it, what you're really paying for when you hire a personal trainer is the accountability. It's that if you decide not to show up for a workout, someone else is going to know and you're letting them down and you're paying for it. That's what makes so many more people as a percentage get better results when they hire a trainer. It's not that the trainer magically shows them how to grow their muscles by 40% more than the way they were doing it before, it's that something magical happens when you actually show up and work out every day or every week or whatever versus not doing it. 

Tim Chermak: I think that's part of the magic of Platform at least, is this system we've created with account managers. It's that you don't just sign up and leads start pouring in and then we never talk to you again. Frankly, that's the way it works at every other company, whether you're buying leads from Zillow or you sign up for something like BoomTown or CINC or Ylopo or whatever, is you sign up, leads come in, and it's all on you. All the motivation and the psychology is up to you. They just wash their hands off it and they say, “If you don't follow up with the leads, it's your fault. We don't really care. As long as you keep paying us, we don't care.” 

Tim Chermak: Platform takes a very different approach where we're going to manage all that for you, but also, you're going to have a dedicated marketing manager and account manager assigned to you and you're regularly going to talk to that person on the phone. Sometimes, people are shocked when I tell them, “Hey, you'll have their cell phone number.” You guys have Carly's cell, you can text her. Hopefully, you don't abuse it. You're not texting her at 10 PM at night or something, but it's not like you're calling a Platform corporate phone number and then we transfer you to Carly. You actually have her cell phone number, almost like you have a marketing employee. I think that makes a ton of difference in the results you see at the end of the year. It's a real person that you're letting down, who's holding you accountable to create that content, like you were just saying. 

Shawna Bellendir: Especially getting to know Carly, and we're lucky to have her here in Denver. We see her randomly too. This is true with all of the PlatFam, I think it goes to say why we've done so many referrals this year too, is that it is truly a group of people that you know have the same interests in mind. I guess the way I look at it is I'm not going to put myself on video and not be authentic about who I am. If I'm that person and I can be authentic with Carly or with Facebook, to the masses, then I feel that the people that are in our group within PlatFam are doing the same thing. By doing that and being that authentic person, they have the same interest in our clients and their best interest in mind. 

Shawna Bellendir: I have a huge network of people, of realtors across the country through my coaching group that I'm a part of. We've gone to conferences with them. There's a couple of 300 agents from across the country. I can easily connect with any one of them to send them a referral if I needed to. I'll be honest, I feel by far more comfortable sending them to people in the PlatFam because I know that they're authentic branding and the way that they connect with their clients is the exact same way that I would treat my clients. I want to send my clients to those people. It's not like I'm going to, “Okay, realtor in Montana. Who comes up first?” That's just a matter of the luck of draw in Google today. 

Tim Chermak: In most coaching groups or Masterminds or even inside of a brokerage, when you send a referral, they might have similar goals to you. Hey, they joined the Mastermind because they have a goal of doubling their business or tripling their business, whatever. They might have similar goals to you, but they don't necessarily have similar values to you. That's what I think makes the Platform program, we call it the PlatFam for Platform family, that's what makes the PlatFam unique in that, yes, they also have similar goals to you, everyone's in there because they want to grow their business, but they also share the same values because they want to grow their business a very specific way, not just getting as many deals as possible. 

Tim Chermak: As Daryl said, it's being a lighthouse, not a tugboat. You don't want to grow your business with manual effort, cold calling leads every day, just viewing every person as a statistic or as a transaction. It's you actually want to get to know these people and build a business with referrals and just do things the old fashioned way where everything is about relationships. We think marketing should serve that. Marketing should help you create more relationships. It shouldn't be this other thing you do independent of building relationships. 

Tim Chermak: Let's actually dive into that. I know that one thing that has worked out pretty well for you, Shawna, is using the PlatFam community across the country to not only send referrals, but get referrals. I think in the last year, did you receive was it 11 or 12 referrals from people in the PlatFam? 

Shawna Bellendir: Between receiving and sending out, there was 12, I think 13. In fact, this afternoon, I'm showing houses to a family that Brian Quinn sent from South Carolina. They're moving here to be closer to their children and grandchildren and I think they're buying $600,000 cash. That'll be, I think, our 13th referral whether received or sent out this year. 

Tim Chermak: Do you know how many of that mix are people that you've received? I'm just curious what that adds up to approximately. 

Shawna Bellendir: Probably four or five I've received. 

Tim Chermak: Okay, so let's just be conservative and let's just say it's four, not five. What is the just average commission on those referrals do you think? What's their price range typically? 

Shawna Bellendir: Anywhere from probably $13,000 is probably the average. 

Tim Chermak: You're basically looking at minimum $50,000 in this last year of GCI just from referrals from people in the PlatFam. 

Shawna Bellendir: Yes. 

Daryl Korinek: Keep in mind that’s Shawna’s side of the transaction, then they use their preferred lender, Daryl, and double that. When they come here to do the deal, do they know any lenders? No, Shawna does. Shawna then is the branded expert in this area, then she goes, “Oh, no. I have this lender right here. He'll take care of it.” They look me up and then I'm branded in the area being the expert as a lender, so double whatever she's done. Is that fair? Is that okay? 

Shawna Bellendir: That's probably fair, yeah. 

Tim Chermak: Again, for those listening, I know that not everyone who listens to The Platform Show is currently working with Platform. It's an expensive program. We very intentionally are not cheap. We don't want to be a $500-a-month marketing service. I don't think you can provide very good value as a marketing service if all you're charging is $500 a month. There's no way that we could do what needs to be done to actually grow someone's business if all we were charging was $500 a month. If you add it up, Platform, I think, is right around $20,000 a year, is what our fee is. When you add ad spend on top of that, you're probably closer to $30,000 a year. 

Tim Chermak: If joining the Platform program is $20,000 a year, but you received $50,000 a year in referrals just in the last 12 months, and then Daryl is obviously able to work with a lot of these folks on their loans and there's also a loan commission on top of that, that's a huge part of the value of the PlatFam that I think no one talks about, is if you do this right and you network right, just getting those referrals can probably pay for your Platform fee every year so that the actual value you get from the marketing itself is free. That's amazing. Obviously, you've also sent out a bunch of referrals. Who are some of the agents that you've referred business to in the last year? 

Shawna Bellendir: Kim Mills. 

Tim Chermak: In Georgia, okay. 

Shawna Bellendir: I ended up talking to Jessica [L'Cour] to get us somebody in Montana because we don't have anybody in the area that I was sending anybody to. Jessica sent us to the agent in Montana. Let's see. We sent to Michelle Vandergrift.

Tim Chermak: In Virginia, okay. 

Shawna Bellendir: I'm brain dead. I know all of these names. I think Kim Mills did two listings for us. Michelle got [Faith]. I'm brain dead. I'm so brain dead right now. 

Tim Chermak: It's cool though having a nationwide referral network where you don't have to look them up and do your own due diligence because you know if they're in the PlatFam, you can trust them. 

Shawna Bellendir: Yeah, 100%. 

Tim Chermak: I think it's that mental shortcut of knowing, I'll just pick a big brokerage like RE/MAX, if you're with RE/MAX, the way things have been done for decades is if I have a referral and they're looking for someone in Albuquerque, I'll just find the RE/MAX office closest to where they want to look in Albuquerque and I'll refer them to that office and I'll take my referral commission. If I'm with RE/MAX, I'll refer to other RE/MAX agents. 

Tim Chermak: Everyone knows there's bad agents in every brokerage. Whether you're talking about eXp, KW, RE/MAX, Sellstate, any brokerage, there's going to be some bad apples. You have no idea if you're referring to some random person, if they're actually going to take care of your client. You can't know if you've never met them. That's what I think makes Platform unique, is that when you get access to this network of other Platform agents across the country, you know that if they're working this marketing program, because we do things so differently, that your client is in good hands if you send out a referral. 

Shawna Bellendir: It goes back to that investment. If you are willing to make that investment in your business and in yourself, you know that they're invested in their clients. The likelihood of their clients even seeing them on Facebook or in any of the ads that we do or whatever, that client could very well go put a negative review and that would just negate everything you do. You never want that to happen. The more invested we are not just monetarily, but emotionally with our clients, I think, and you know that everybody in the PlatFam has that. 

Tim Chermak: You guys recently got back from the Platform Mastermind. I know Daryl had hinted at that before. What was your biggest takeaway or two from the event, whether it was something strategic, something super practical or tactical, what were your biggest takeaways from the Platform Mastermind? 

Daryl Korinek: I think the one speaker that talked about using small businesses in our area and help lift them up as a fellowship thing was fantastic. We not only can help grow their business, but in turn, grow our business as well with more exposure of us helping to “expose what they do.” I think it was the example of the pizza and the two free pizzas and then how that just continued to expand and grow and grow. The next thing you know, there's 80,000 views and everybody's competing to get these free pizzas. That really resonates with us because we eat out a lot. Why aren't we putting that to good use? 

Tim Chermak: I think I probably order food like seven days a week

Daryl Korinek: Things like that really make sense. It’s not recreating this crazy wheel that no one can understand. It's, “Why don't we just get back to the basics, do the right thing, lift up our neighbors, and grow as a community?” That really resonated with us. 

Shawna Bellendir: We came back with a goal of, “Okay, no more eating out at the local Applebee's or Chili's or anything. Pick a restaurant. If we're not eating locally owned, then we don't eat out.” Honest to God, we probably eat out a couple of times a week, three times a week, easy, because I don't cook. 

Tim Chermak: I am the same, by the way. I'm just going to say this so everyone can hear. I probably order food seven days a week because I'm working, my wife works with us at Platform. The last thing we want to do after working a nine or 10-hour day is cook a meal. I think not even four or five days, but seven days out of seven days, we're ordering food. We're not getting fancy meals every night. It's Chipotle or whatever. It's just a part of our life where it's almost weird and exceptional if we do cook a meal. I think for my parents' generation or my grandparents, if you order food or if you go out to eat, that's for a special occasion. For us, it's like, we order out every meal. If we cook a meal, it's a special occasion. 

Shawna Bellendir: Christmas, yeah. 

Tim Chermak: Exactly, I was going to say Christmas or Thanksgiving.

Daryl Korinek: We didn't have that paradigm shift as well when we start talking about if you made however much money last year, divide that by 12, then divide that by four, and then divide that by 40, and that's what you're making per hour. If we're making X number of dollars per hour, why am I cooking cheeseburgers when I can pay someone else to do it significantly better while we're working for what our real hourly wage is instead of making cheeseburgers that probably don't taste as good as the ones we bought? We don't have to clean up. It makes sense.

Tim Chermak: I've had fascinating discussions with my dad who grew up super poor in the 1940s, like really, really poor. My grandparents obviously grew up in the Great Depression. My grandpa, I think the first time he ever experienced electricity was when he actually came back after World War II. He got back because he lived in rural Minnesota, which hadn't yet been electrified before he left for the war. They grew up very, very poor and they kept that their whole lives. 

Tim Chermak: My parents and grandparents actually became multi-millionaires through small business ownership. As adults, they were very well-off financially, but they kept to those habits of, “We're not going to eat out. If we do eat out, you're ordering water.” They would look at how I live my life now and they're like, “You're wasting so much money on, whatever, ordering cheeseburgers to the house or ordering a pizza or ordering Chipotle or whatever it is.” I would just get down to the math of it because you can't argue with math. No one's opinions are relevant when we're talking about math. 

Tim Chermak: I'm like, “Here's what I made last year. Therefore, I can divide that by 2,000 and that gives me my hourly wage.” It's 50 weeks a year times about 40 hours a week, so that's 2,000 hours in a work year for most people. Let's say you made $200,000 last year. You divide that and if you made $200,000, that's $100 an hour. That's your average hour divided by a 40-hour week. That might be off a little bit because maybe you work slightly more than 40 hours some weeks and slightly less others, whatever, but the point is it's about $100 an hour. 

Tim Chermak: If I take, let's say, 90 minutes to prepare a meal at night between prep work, cooking the meal, cleaning up, because you have to think about everything like doing the dishes, all that, 90 minutes doesn't seem like a lot, but that's $150 of my time. I'm not even talking about the food cost. I'm just talking about my time. The food cost now makes that maybe $160, $170. You could eat a very, very nice meal every night if you think about that. That really costs you $160, $170 if you're making $200,000 a year. Now, the math only gets worse as you make more money. Shawna, this last year, did you do, you said, $18 million in production? 

Shawna Bellendir: It would be about $400,000 GCI. 

Tim Chermak: Your time, if you're making $400,000 a year, is worth $200 an hour. Even taking one hour to make a meal at night, that really cost you $200. That's how you have to think about it. All of a sudden, ordering a bowl from Chipotle or ordering some cheeseburgers from somewhere, you're actually saving a lot of money by doing that if it frees up your time. I've gotten all these arguments with my parents about that over the years because they think I'm super frivolous and I waste money on things. Maybe if I was making $15 an hour, but my time is actually worth a lot more than sitting down and cooking a meal. The exception, as you guys said, is holidays. That way, it actually feels special at Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever, Easter, if we sit down and cook a meal. Cool, I don't know what even got us on that rant, but that's actually something we talked about a lot at the Mastermind. 

Daryl Korinek: I think the good piece of that too is when we're eating, that's actually a business meeting. It's an expense. We expense it on our taxes. I'm sort of teasing, but I'm not. 

Shawna Bellendir: The point of that was to say, as we eat out, okay, now we have to use those as another video, whether it's a small business spotlight or, “Hey, this is a great restaurant we just checked out. This is what I would recommend,” or “We have this amazing waitress that just helped us. We gave her a $100 tip.” Whatever the case may be, it's just something to make us more community oriented because we have. 

Shawna Bellendir: Even just here in our building, there’s six businesses in our building. With just our community building, we'll have done four transactions come Friday with just people in our building and there's only six businesses here, both of us. Yeah, exactly. We've got two others in the works for 2023. It's the people that we interact with and the people that we know in our community that are seeing our stuff regularly because now they are friends and now their friends are friends and we've always said all of our clients become family. 

Shawna Bellendir: We're so excited when we take our first time home buyers out because they really want to look at starting a family. They buy this house and we're so excited for them buying a house, then they end up, “Guess what? We're pregnant.” The first thing that we're doing is taking a gift over to them because we're so excited to share in that with them. We knew how important it was that what we were able to help them with to buy their home became the next step in their lives with this new family. They're telling their aunts and their uncles and their cousins and their brothers, and everybody's finding us through that very organic way of doing business. 

Daryl Korinek: That's the Platform mindset jump too, where before we would do that, we'd give each other a hug and then go home and no one knew about it. Now, “Hey, video this, watch this.” We started videoing those things so everybody in their sphere then sees what we're doing and they get to experience that joy as well and they get to see it, and again, top of mind. 

Shawna Bellendir: We went to a family's wedding, gosh, I don't know, September, I guess. We had seen a family we hadn't seen in quite some time. The entire night was spent on conversation around our videos and our Facebook and real estate. We literally table hopped at the wedding. If we said congratulations to the bride and groom, I'm not sure if we did, but we table hopped from family member to family member, even out of state who eventually wants to come back or maybe they're looking in Kentucky like, “I have somebody. Let me make sure that you get in touch with somebody that we know.” We're constantly referring. It came down to people that we don't know that see our stuff on Facebook because they're seeing this stuff constantly that may have clicked on a link and become a lead and set up a search are now referring us, but we've never worked with them. We closed four deals each this year with people that were referred to us from Platform leads that we've never worked with. 

Tim Chermak: I think that's really important to just slow down and let that marinate a little what they just said. You're getting referrals from people who have never even themselves worked with you. Normally, when we think about a referral in real estate, it's because, “Hey, I have this past client and they were super happy. They had a great transaction with me. Because they were happy working with me, they referred their friend or they referred their mom,” or whatever. 

Tim Chermak: You know that your marketing is really dialed in when you start getting referrals from strangers who have never even worked with you, but they're so impressed by the value of your marketing because your marketing isn't just repetitive or consistent, it's actually valuable. People watch your ads or they see your ads and they learn something. They think, “Wow, that's really substantive. This realtor really seems to be good. This loan officer really seems to be an expert and they know what they're talking about. I'm going to refer my friend to them.” That's how you know your marketing is valuable, is when it's generating referrals from people who have never even worked with you. That's awesome. 

Shawna Bellendir: It gets exponential. One that we're dealing with right now in particular, the lead is in our Platform list. She sent a client who was actually already working with another realtor, and then said, "'They couldn't get the deal done. Will you help us?” “Yes.” “They needed a lender too because they weren't happy with the guy that they were working with.” “Cool.” They ended up closing literally 30 days later from the time that they were referred to us for $400,000. They have since sent their son buying another $300,000 and I picked up a $1.3 million listing that'll go live January 6th all from the one person who referred us that we've never worked with. 

Tim Chermak: That's awesome. That's because of the personality and the value in the marketing itself that people feel that confident referring people to you even though they've never themselves met you or worked with you. They're basically already evangelists for you before they've ever even worked with you.

Shawna Bellendir: Exactly. It's become sphere and now they're referring and they're referring and it's just constant. When I tell you we literally do not follow up with any of the leads, we don't follow up with any of the leads.

Tim Chermak: It sounds like the leads are following up with you.

Shawna Bellendir: They are. They 100% are. They call us. We get a phone call, we know if the phone number is not in our phone, we answer it 100% of the time because it's probably somebody that was either referred or knows about or saw or something every time. 

Tim Chermak: Now, what are some of your favorite ads that you've run over the years? Let's dive into some of the specifics here. Not necessarily an ad that got the most likes or the most clicks or any of those metrics, but when you think about all the Platform retargeting campaigns and whatnot over the years, whether it was a photo ad or a video, what are some of your favorite ads that got people to actually tell you in real life, “Hey, I saw that ad. That was awesome. I loved your post about this or that?” It's actually creating engagement in real life. What are maybe some of your favorites over the last couple of years? 

Shawna Bellendir: My favorites are the ones that make you cry. I don't know why, but I'm a crier. My whole family's a crier. My family reacts to that and they're like, “Oh, I just loved when this was on there.” A Veterans Day video, that one was huge. We're all military families. Daryl’s retired military. The boys are all military, or sons. We have, of course, extended family. Whenever we do anything like that, if they can make me cry, I'm there. 

Shawna Bellendir: I have to say one of my favorite ones, script-wise, was this home video that we just did for Christmas. As you're crying, as you're reading the script, you get to pull all the pictures together and you find pictures that you don't necessarily go look at on a regular basis. You had to go find pictures of you and the kids outside or the kids when they were little with Santa or whatever the case may be, they're there. You know they're there, but they're out of sight, out of mind and you don't see them. To put that context behind it where it is home and you get to have Christmas dinner at home, at the dining room table, those are my favorite by far. I'm going to cry thinking about it. 

Tim Chermak: Daryl, how about you? 

Daryl Korinek: I like the ones that are fun and that are funny because forever, today, that same metaphor with the lighthouse and the tugboat, I've been the tugboat. To pull me away from my computer, to pull me away from the desk normally takes quite a bit. I had one that I had a mullet, and military forever so I've never had hair, and now I'm walking around with this mullet going, “People really have hair like this?” 

Tim Chermak: Were you Air Force or Army?

Daryl Korinek: I was running around the house with a mullet one day, and then the other day, I was fishing for ducks in the sink. The ducks in the sink one, that got a ton of attention. People are like, “This is crazy, dude, but it's not you. I don't know who the hell is in these videos, but we know you, dog. This is not you. You don't act like this. This is not how you behave. We know this isn't you. Who's making you do this?” I'm like, “Well, it's fun. I make myself do it because it's a good time, it's fun, and it lightens up the day and it gets some exposure.” We just do it together. 

Daryl Korinek: For us, I think too that's super important to articulate, is that we do everything together. It's one of those things, “If we work 60 hours a week, we never see each other. Oh, wait a minute. We work 60 hours a week together.” We're always running into each other. We're always doing something together. We're always together as we work. That's been the best part of any ad, is when I'm super busy and focused and she goes, “Oh, stop. Hold this, pick this up, walk over here. Let's talk like this. Check this out. Let's go do a listing video.” “Why am I doing listing videos if I'm a lender?” “Just let's go do it. Get in the mood. Do it. You are what you do. Let's go do it and let's have some fun with it.” It really has paid off. 

Shawna Bellendir: It's funny too. The random Platform leads that I've just called the low hanging fruit if you will, of leads, they've all come through his listing videos, like every single one of them, which makes me laugh. We're like, “He's not even the realtor for crying out loud,” but they've all come through his listing videos. 

Tim Chermak: Now, Daryl, which branch did you serve in? 

Daryl Korinek: I was Air Force. 

Tim Chermak: Air Force, okay. I'm just picturing an Air Force Veteran with a sink full of rubber ducks or you're doing some of these really cheesy video scripts we have and all your buddies are like, “What is going on? Why are you doing this?” 

Daryl Korinek: I was attached to the Army for a long time, and the Army guys, they just can't make that connection. Our sons who were in the Army and the Navy, they're like, “This is ridiculous. I know this isn't you. Why aren’t you punching the ducks? Aren't you supposed to be shooting the ducks? Aren't we drowning the ducks? How did ducks survive this?” I'm like, “No, this is what we're doing. This is fun. Leave me alone.” Even our boys give me attitude about some of them, but they see them. That's the fun part. We've got 24-year-olds who watch our videos and watch our Facebook page. 

Tim Chermak: The point is they see them and they're talking about them, otherwise your business or your career as a loan officer wouldn't be randomly coming up over family dinner or conversations. There's probably a thousand things they care about more than, “How is Daryl's loan officer business going?” The fact that you're doing interesting, funny things makes them think about that. It means that if they have a friend or a friend has a friend who's thinking about buying a house, they're now a lot more likely to refer you because those things you do in your content keeps you top of mind. 

Tim Chermak: I think that's the core of the Platform strategy, is that we recognize that people buy homes and they sell their homes. If they're going to work with a loan officer or a realtor, it's someone that they feel like they know. I mean, this is old advice. People work with people they know, like, and trust, duh. That's not an original insight. The way that everyone else does marketing where they just buy leads from Zillow or buy Google pay-per-click leads or CINC or BoomTown or whatever, it's like they're completely ignoring that. 

Tim Chermak: They say all the right things about, “Yeah, people work with people they like and trust,” and then they throw their money buying leads of total strangers and tell you to cold call these people. The way that we do marketing at Platform is simply just aligning with these deeper truths that if someone feels like they know you, they're going to want to do business with you. They're probably a lot more likely to refer business to you if they feel like they know you. 

Tim Chermak: I mean, that's why even Platform as a remote company, we're not based in Denver. You guys are obviously in Denver, but we're a national company, and yet we have an annual Mastermind that we don't charge people to attend because we want all of our clients to be there hanging out in person, getting to talk with you. I see there being huge value in that even though it costs us a ton of money to put on the event, especially now that we have almost 200 people coming. It's not like we're just renting a 30-person room at the local Marriott anymore for free. It's a pretty hefty expense, but that's how you build relationships. I know that it pays for itself over the cost of the year if you amortize the cost of the Platform Mastermind from our perspective over a 12-month year. 

Tim Chermak: How many referrals did we get because now such and such client who had never really gotten to know us even though they've maybe been a client for six months or 12 months, whatever, they really got to know us at the Mastermind? We went out for dinner or we went out for drinks and seat the table at night or whatever, and now they feel comfortable emotionally with us. Now, they're actually sending us referrals. That maybe wouldn't have happened had we not gotten a chance to hang out In person. 

Tim Chermak: I just keep coming back to this deeper truth that your marketing should just reflect what's going on in real life of how relationships actually happen in real life. Marketing isn't and shouldn't be synonymous with lead generation. Way too many agents think that marketing is lead generation. I'm like, “Lead generation is a small part of marketing. If you're doing it right, marketing is not synonymous with lead generation.” 

Shawna Bellendir: At the end of the day, when they're calling you, you'll be 10 times more business in my opinion. It makes life a hell of a lot easier and much more fun. 

Tim Chermak: You've scaled from, as you said, about 20 transactions a year, Shawna, to you'll hit about 40 this year. You basically doubled. I was hinting before at the very beginning of the episode that going from 10 to 20, I guess, is technically doubling, but there's nothing qualitative that changes in your business. Nothing structurally changes going from 10 to 20. Usually, if you're doing 10 deals a year, you have the time to do 20. It's just that you have a lack of lead flow. 

Tim Chermak: Going from 20 to 40 is an entirely qualitatively different leap in business because what happens around 20 transactions a year is you start realizing you're running out of time. It's like I don't have the hours in the day to follow up with leads for two hours a day if that's what it takes to get from 20 to 30 or from 20 to 40. If you're going to make that leap, because this is where most agents hit a plateau, there's substantially fewer agents doing 40 transactions than there are agents doing 20 transactions, but the line is fairly linear going from five deals a year to 10 deals a year to 15 to 20. It kind of flat lines after about 20, 25 deals a year because that's where agents run out of time. If you don't start thinking of your business like a business, you'll only ever do 20, 25 transactions a year. 

Tim Chermak: How do you think your marketing had to change to get from 20 to 40? We've been hinting at this the whole episode, but we haven't really gotten into the specifics of it's not enough to just say, “Hey, invest in marketing when you're at 20 deals a year to get you to 40,” because the way that you do marketing or the type of leads that comes in, I think is just as important is the fact that you have leads coming in to get you from 20 to 40. How has that affected your career going from 20 to 40, but the type of marketing that you're doing? 

Shawna Bellendir: I would say that it's just very generic. That probably comes out wrong when I say that it's generic, but it's just what I do every day. It's just me living life. Okay, let me take this back. When we were at the Platform Mastermind and you asked around the room, “Who spends a full day planning out their videos?” I still see Angela Musgrave raising her hand saying she does eight hours a week to do their per videos and to plan content and whatever. I was like, “Oh, now I really do suck.” 

Shawna Bellendir: I really look to Angela. Angela has some great videos out there. I love watching Angela because she's just so fun, but I don't plan anything. I'm lucky to remember to take my phone out of my back pocket and actually get a picture or take a video or do something. I noticed on my calendar that I have to talk to Carly on Tuesday, and I’m like, “I need to give Carly videos. I need to give Carly something because she's been asking me for the past two weeks.” It's just becoming organic. Yeah, exactly. I'll walk into the office and I'll take a picture. I’m like, “Daryl, smile.” That became the elephant in the room picture. I don't know, just random stuff. I did order the mullet online because we had to and I didn’t have a mullet stuck in the house anywhere. 

Tim Chermak: Daryl hadn't grown out a mullet so we had to spend money buying one. 

Shawna Bellendir: Yeah, it was so just keep generic.

Daryl Korinek: I think as a one liner to make it make a ton of sense and to really connect it, is that we're humanizing social media. Social media is not the fake crap that you see people at the gym setting up lights and taking pictures of whatever. It's real. It's a human thing. We can't forget to say this, I gotta say this too, this year's market is down 50% or more. When she went from 20 to 40 in 2022 with a junkie market, she really went from 20 to 80. In a normal market, the 2020 market, the 2021 market, she would have done 80 by herself with what she's been able to accomplish system-wise. Our systems and the lighthouse piece is what she's just really did a fantastic little way with. 

Tim Chermak: That's actually something that's really important to mention that when you're growing and you're actually doubling your business from 20 transactions to 40 and you did that in a down market where, obviously, transaction volume was way, way down, that's really impressive. A lot of agents are lucky to just maintain the same amount of transactions over the last year because the transaction volume was so down. Even though prices aren't down necessarily, transaction volume is way down, which is all that matters to a realtor. You don't really care if a home is $400,000 versus $380,000, but if the transaction volume gets cut in half, then that makes things very difficult for a realtor. 

Shawna Bellendir: We've had probably a list of 20, 30 more people who we thought were 100% guaranteed buying this year or selling this year or both and they all fell off. They're like ghosts in the wind right now. I think they'll come back or they will come back, I know they will, but it's just a matter of timing because this market has changed like it has. Yeah, we were up this year and I can't complain at all because with, like you said, Denver’s a crazy market, there's 52,000 realtors licensed in the state of Colorado. To be able to say that you're in the top 800 of those, I'm really happy with that. 

Tim Chermak: That's awesome. What are you typically spending in a month on your ads? Do you know? 

Shawna Bellendir: Probably just at $1,000 to $1,200. I just looked this up. I'm doing budgeting stuff for 2023. I think that on my side, we do the same on Daryl’s side. We double it because we have two Platform markets, North Denver and South Denver, and then we cross promote between the two. 

Tim Chermak: Yeah, totally. Really, your business, Shawna, growing from 20 to 40 transactions has been fueled by the actual advertising budget every month in terms of the ads budget for Facebook. Instagram ads is $1,000 to $1,200 a month. It's not like you're spending $3,000 or $5,000 a month or something on the ads. 

Shawna Bellendir: No, not at all. In fact, when we were at the Platform Mastermind, I thought it was so eye-opening to hear the panel talk about what they're spending a month on ads. Obviously, most of them didn't know or had an idea, didn't know exactly, and I would have been the same way. It was just really eye-opening to go, “Okay. If I want to take this to the next level, it's time to take it to the next level.” Whether that's $1,500 or $2,000 a month at each location, then that's what's going to happen. Besides filming more videos or doing more content, that it is 100% about the ad spend behind it. 

Tim Chermak: Who is someone in the PlatFam that you guys look up to? If you've been with Platform now for three years, you've probably started to learn some of the names, you've gotten to know maybe some of the people, you've seen them at Masterminds. Who is someone that you just look at their page, the content they create, where you're just like, “Hey, I love the content that they put out. I want to do more of what they're doing?” 

Shawna Bellendir: That's a long list. Now, I'm brain dead. I cannot think of names. The gentleman who sings everything. I wish I was that creative.

Tim Chermak: Bill Catlett.

Shawna Bellendir: Yeah. I love Neal Cox, Angela Musgrave, everything she puts out. My God, that was so easy and so real, so authentic. I watch a lot of Angela’s stuff.

Tim Chermak: She's in a similar market to you too being in Boise, a big city in the mountains like Denver.

Shawna Bellendir: Angela, and then the Brodericks because they're so family oriented. I love watching their stuff. 

Tim Chermak: When we were talking before, you said that you're starting to use Karen Hall's VIP strategy a bit. 

Shawna Bellendir: We have always been doing some sort of Popeye gift type of thing. That's something that I've always used in my marketing. Karen really allowed us to look at taking things to a whole other level. We started the actual, just the VIP lists last year. That was amazing because we did get the random, “Thank you so much. That was so nice of you thinking of me. Oh, by the way, I have somebody that is going to be looking. I'm going to send you their contact information.” We did get a couple of people just by doing that. This year, we're going to take it to a whole other level. We're going to roll it out to our entire brokerage, to all of our agents in our brokerage, and do higher quality gifts, things like that. 

Shawna Bellendir: We're also taking it to another level on Daryl’s perspective. He works with the buy side. The realtor and he already have a relationship most likely because we've already brought him the client, but he doesn't have a relationship, say, with the listing agent. We're going to take that VIP gift strategy to the listing agent on his side, and they're going to get, say, four or five gifts throughout the transaction process to talk about communication and, “Congratulations, you're under contract. We want you to know that this is going to be a great deal.” 

Shawna Bellendir: Actually, Be Our Guest was the book that was discussed at the Platform Mastermind. We ordered a bunch of Be Our Guest books and we're making some little teacups to go along with it and little teapots. That's going to be the first gift. It'll be something along the lines, “Hey, we want you to be our guest in this transaction. Sit back and relax and let us take care of it.” The next, we're still working through the details of it, but it's going to be all about the listing agent on that side, so that he then has the opportunity to create relationships with those listing agents and hopefully bring them over to his business and bring him more business in the future as they have buyers. 

Tim Chermak: Final question guys, what would be your advice to someone who is either thinking about signing up for Platform or maybe they signed up six months ago but they're still on that ascent, they're still on that curve where they're building the foundation, they haven't seen the crazy results, their business hasn't doubled yet? They're putting in the work, they're getting clicks, they're getting leads, but they haven't seen this crazy level of success that they maybe see other people in the PlatFam getting. What would your advice be to just give them perspective? Now that you've been in the PlatFam for three years now, you've seen the results it creates over the long term. What would your advice or perspective be to someone who's maybe starting to get frustrated or they're anxious? 

Shawna Bellendir: I say the first thing is this is not a sprint. This is your business and this is your livelihood not just today and this year, but forever. The investment that you make today might not pay off today. It might pay off 90 days from now or a year from now, or gradually over time to the point you don't even realize that it's paying off. That's really the growth that's important, in my opinion. 

Shawna Bellendir: To grow too fast, you can catch yourself underwater. We've had other businesses that grew super fast, and then a year later, they crashed and you were like, “Wait a minute, now we have all these expenses,” because you're just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. When it can go gradually, then the exponential growth that comes over time, I think, is by far more valuable than some immediate success that goes away tomorrow, especially in this industry because it is one transaction and done. It doesn't have to be. This is about the relationships that create transactions today, tomorrow, and six years from now. 

Daryl Korinek: I'll tell a new agent to have fun with it and turn whatever you're doing into making it fun. If we can change our perspective on something, then we can change the ability to appreciate what we're doing. Have fun with what you're doing so you can appreciate what you're doing and people are going to pick up on that vibration and they're going to see, “She's having a great time with what she's doing or what he's doing. I want to be a part of this too,” and see how that goes. 

Daryl Korinek: Last but not least, I think if you don't have an assistant, you are the assistant. Learn what the assistant does, learn how they do what they do, be able to do it, and then find someone else to do it so then you can do the things that you need to be doing to maximize your hourly wage. You want to crush this business, then do the things that people who are crushing the business do and that's belly button to belly button. When you're out talking with people and you're out having those relationships or building relationships and building your sphere of influence with other people, that's how you're growing your business, not by stuffing an envelope. 

Shawna Bellendir: We have a gal that does our marketing part-time, like our general marketing type stuff, and then we have Jessica who is our office manager. I can't even tell you everything she does because she's on vacation this week and I'm biting my nails like, “Oh my God. I've got too much to do and I don't know what to do.” We wouldn't know what to do without her. We have Lily coming on board. Without our help, there's no way we do what we do. No way. 

Tim Chermak: Really, it's just think long term and be aware of the value of your time. Daryl, I like how you said that. If you don't have an assistant, you are the assistant, you just don't realize it. Your marketing should reflect that. That's actually something that I've heard a lot of agents say. Once they've been with Platform for a year or two, because it typically takes them this long to realize it, but after a year or two, they'll say, “You know what? One unexpected side effect of this Platform marketing program is that, yeah, my business has grown and that's cool, but I actually enjoy my business again. It's fun again.” 

Tim Chermak: Yeah, the money has always been nice because maybe even before they signed up for Platform, they were making $150,000, $200,000 a year. It's not like they didn't have money to pay the bills or whatever. Their business has grown and that's great, but they'll say, “What's really cool is that I'm actually enjoying being a realtor again. It's fun again. I can now see myself doing it another five, 10, 15 years, where before I was just getting burnt out. Platform has made the business fun again.” Making extra money is almost like icing on the cake when you start enjoying the process all over again.

Shawna Bellendir: By far, because you get to enjoy those relationships. For so many of us that are in the business, that's what we love about it.

Daryl Korinek: Totally. 

Tim Chermak: Cool. Well, guys, thank you for your time. I think this has been a really cool perspective to have both the realtor and a loan officer on an episode chatting together. This is Shawna and Daryl, they're in Denver, Colorado. Hope this episode was as valuable for everyone else as it's been for me. I learned a ton about how you've been structuring your business. I had honestly no idea you worked with CINC before Platform. That was really interesting. I completely forgot that you were at that conference back in October, 2019, when I spoke at that Sellstate event. Now, I know. 

Tim Chermak: Hey, it's a good thing I spoke at that event because you're still working with us three years later, almost four years later. That's high hanging fruit, thinking long-term about your business. Honestly, I wasn't even paid to speak there. It's just one of those things where when you get an opportunity, you go do it because you never know what might happen long-term. That's how I think about filming videos or any content, is who knows what it could create if the right person sees it at the right time? Very cool. Guys, thank you for joining us on the show. 

Shawna Bellendir: Thank you for having us. 

Daryl Korinek: Thank you.

Tim Chermak: By the way, thank you for the hat. This is a podcast so people can't see us right now, but I'm wearing a baseball hat that Daryl and Shawna had custom made for me. It's the state flag of Colorado with the Platform logo embedded in the middle of the flag where the yellow, is it the sun? Is that what it's supposed to be in the Colorado flag? 

Shawna Bellendir: Yeah, it's the sun. It could be the gold that was mined here. 

Tim Chermak: Okay, but they got the Platform logo and somehow put it perfectly where it looks like it's part of the Colorado flag. They put it on hats, they sent me a shirt with the Platform logo, and then they sent my new daughter, Rose, some infant gear as well with that Colorado-Platform logo on there. That's awesome. Thank you, guys. If I don't see you before then, I'll see you guys for sure at the next Platform Mastermind. 

Shawna Bellendir: 100%. We're not missing it. That's the one we won't miss. 

Tim Chermak: All right, cool. Thanks guys. 

Shawna Bellendir: Thanks, see you later.

Daryl Korinek: See you then. Thank you.