Thoughts On The Future Of Real Estate Marketing

Jocelyn Deal:
And I was still a fairly new agent at that point. I hadn't even been in two years yet, I think. I think maybe I'd just celebrated my second year anniversary in real estate. So I was like, "Sure, I'll meet up with you." So we met up over coffee and she was like, "Okay, I want to join your team." And I'm like, "I don't have a team." She's like, "I want to join your team." And I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm starting a team." So here we are. And now I've got, oh man, I think we have 10 people in school that will be joining our team, as soon as they get done.

Tim Chermak:
This is the Platform Marketing Show, where we interview the most creative and ambitious real estate agents in the country, dissect their local marketing strategy and get the behind the scenes scoop on how they're generating listing leads and warm referrals. We'll dive into the specifics of what marketing campaigns are working for them, how much they're spending on those campaigns and figure out how they have perfected what we call the Platform marketing strategy.

Tim Chermak:
This is your host, Tim Chermak. I'm the founder and CEO Platform. I love marketing and I talk too much. So let's dive in.

Tim Chermak:
Hey guys. And welcome back to another episode of the Platform Marketing Show I'm joined today by Jocelyn Deal in Indianapolis, Indiana or near Indianapolis, I should say. And Jocelyn Deal, first, I will say that's an epic last name for a real estate agent. She's been with Platform since 2019, I believe. So it's been about three years now and she has a pretty cool before and after story because her first year in real estate, before Platform, she did about one, one and a half million somewhere in there because she was a new agent. It was her very first year. Now, Jocelyn's actually closer to 12 million in production. So literally, it's added 10 million a year to her production. And it's not just one of those things where it's correlated with causation, right? She actually looked back at the last year and 24 of the transactions she had last year, she can either directly or indirectly trace to Platform's marketing campaigns, 24 transactions last year. So that's pretty cool. Jocelyn, welcome to the Platform Marketing Show. Super stoked to have you today.

Jocelyn Deal:
Thank you. Happy to be here.

Tim Chermak:
You got going with us in 2019 and you know, you didn't film this video in 2019. I'm guessing you filmed this video in probably early, maybe winter of 2020, but one of my all time, favorite testimonial videos that any Platform agent has ever filmed was just a very simple, and it was a 30 second video that you filmed where it was just a selfie video on your phone and you filmed it standing in front of a new construction house. It's like this huge new construction house. I remember it was snowing or winter outside because you were dressed up in winter gear because you live in Indiana and you were basically saying I'm so excited because behind me is a brand new house. And how many square feet was it?

Jocelyn Deal:
4902.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. Which is insane, like a 4,900 square foot house. And I'm moving into this house because Platform has helped me grow my business so much that we could afford this. And you mentioned in the video that, we were able to put a 20% down payment on this house and it's really our dream house. And at the time, did you have kids or how many kids did you have?

Jocelyn Deal:
I think Bianca was a baby at that time.

Tim Chermak:
Okay.

Jocelyn Deal:
So yeah. I don't even think she was a year old at that point.

Tim Chermak:
Okay. And do you have two kids now or-

Jocelyn Deal:
Two.

Tim Chermak:
... is it. Okay. Yeah. I mean, things have even changed since then, but I remember thinking, wow, what an emotionally powerful testimonial video, because you're not just talking about, oh yay. Platform helped me grow my business. It's great. I recommend them, whatever. It wasn't a generic testimonial video. It was you literally standing in front of the brand new house that you and your husband were building. And it was a big house too. It's like 4,900 square feet. And you were able to say, hey, and we didn't just finance this zero down or something. It's like, we were able to put a really hefty 20% down payment on this bad boy because your real estate business grew so much.

Tim Chermak:
I just love that because it's really moving. It's really moving the case study or the testimonial from just, hey, here's my GCI or here's my volume two. This is what it actually means for our personal lives, having that business growth. So that was super cool. That was super cool. So that was 2019. Now we're in 2022. What does your business look like now as we're a recording this in mid 2022?

Jocelyn Deal:
So we closed 61 transactions last year for $11.7 million. I now have a team of agents. And so I have buyers, agents and everything. So with me having little kids, it's more work than I can do just on my own. So I brought on some help and now, we have four agents on our team now.

Tim Chermak:
Oh wow. Okay. So I actually did not know this. So I'm learning all this for the first time right now. I had no idea you had a team. Okay.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. So my team started the same time that I had my second child. I didn't plan the team. I didn't plan the team. I planned the child, but I didn't plan the team. It just happened because actually here's something you don't know, Tim, somebody opted into one of my Platform campaigns and I was messaging back and forth with her and she said, "Actually, I want to talk to you about real estate." And I was like, "Okay, sure." And I was still, you know, like a fairly new agent at that point. I hadn't even been in two years yet, I think. I think maybe I just celebrated my second year anniversary in real estate.

Jocelyn Deal:
So I was like, "Sure, I'll meet up with you." So we met up over coffee and she was like, "Okay, I want to join your team." And I'm like, "I don't have a team." She's like, "I want to join your team." And I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm starting a team." So here we are. And now I've got, oh man, I think we have 10 people in school that will be joining our team as soon as they get done.

Tim Chermak:
Holy smokes. You're going big time with this. Okay. Wow.

Jocelyn Deal:
When God has a plan, you don't say no to it, right?

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. And when the marketing is firing on all cylinders, now you can actually start providing those people with leads because that's what I think is so important. If you decide to go the route of building a team, which is for some people, not for other people. Right. But if you decide to do that, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is they make a pros and cons list of why I should build a team versus not. And they just subconsciously ignore all of the costs of doing it. And all they see is the upside because they think, oh, I'm going to have all this scalability. And I'll be able to profit off of all the production of all these team members. And they can take my excess business that I can't handle and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Tim Chermak:
And all of that can be true if you set things up the right way. But what a lot of people building a team don't do first is they don't invest in the marketing lead generation for their team members. So their team... Yeah. Right, right. So their team members join and then they're just waiting for you to give them leads because they don't know how to go out and get business. Right? So you already had that. So you basically were almost pushed or almost pulled in that direction, you would say of, well I have so many leads and ironically, one of those team members came from one of the Platform marketing campaigns, it sounds like. That it's kind of just organically evolved into this. So that's cool.

Tim Chermak:
Okay. So as you've grown in the last couple years, Jocelyn, what have been some of your favorite ads? What have been first, I'll ask you what have been the most effective lead generation ads in terms of actually generating leads because I'm sure when someone hears that, hey, you actually tracked at least 24 deals last year directly to Platform, what ads are you running that are getting those specific leads, whether they're listings, homes list, whatever. And then the second question was what are some of your favorite retargeting ads that you've done?

Jocelyn Deal:
So, the 24 was the year before last because last year, I mentioned I had the baby and I started the team. So I was a affordable Platform client last year and I didn't do my... Oh, what is she called?

Tim Chermak:
Account manager.

Jocelyn Deal:
My... Huh?

Tim Chermak:
Your account manager.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yes. Account manager. Yeah. I didn't do what my account manager told me to do last year. So my Platform did not do as well last year just because I didn't do what I was told to do, but videos, videos, videos. That's the name of the game. So social media wants to see you. And so video marketing is the best thing.

Tim Chermak:
I really think with videos in particular, photos are awesome, right? But with videos, it's the closest thing that you can get to an in person meeting with all these leads. Because in the context of a video, they're hearing your voice. So we underestimate, I think, the neurobiological effect that hearing someone's voice has on how much do I trust you? It doesn't make any logical sense, to be clear that if I know what someone's voice sounds like, therefore I can trust them. Right. But I guarantee you probably nine times out of 10, if you were shown a lineup of five agents that all look somewhat similar and think of a lineup, the way that someone is asked to identify criminals at the jail or whatever, there's a lineup of agents and you know what one of their voices sounds like, but you don't really know the others, you'll subconsciously trust the person more that you know what their voice sounds like.

Tim Chermak:
Because subliminally, you feel like you know them, right? So you can't accomplish that with just running a bunch of pictures of your portrait or your business card, whatever. When they see you on video at this subconscious level, people feel like they're getting to know you because they know, oh cool. If I meet her, I know exactly what her voice sounds like. It's almost as if I've met her, even though I haven't. So yeah. Awesome. So you've you filmed a lot of videos last year. Maybe not as much as you probably could have because you were building a team, you had another baby. So what have been some of those most effective lead generation ads?

Jocelyn Deal:
Well, so going back to the whole video thing about it and people trusting me with that, I have to say that all of the transactions that I have worked, people that came from Platform, like a Platform ad that I did, those transactions have been a thousand times easier than leads that I've gotten from other lead sources that are just cold leads. They don't know me from anything. I'm just the one who answered the phone call. So, because they already trust me, they listen to what I say. And so therefore those people are a lot easier to get under contract too, because they listen to my advice because, like you said, they already know me and trust me. And plus they've already chosen me. So the fact that I'm working with them means that I don't have to try to win them over because they've already chosen me. So it makes my job a lot easier. And then it makes the transaction a lot easier as well. So I just wanted to throw that in there too.

Tim Chermak:
Absolutely. That's probably a huge forgotten benefit of doing marketing is that when you do get leads, they're choosing you because they want to work with you specifically. Whereas if you're buying impressions from whether it's realtor.com, Zillow, whatever, they want to go look at a house and they don't really care what agent shows up. They just want to go look at a house. And so even the format of a Zillow lead, if you think about it kind of philosophically, it's really reducing the role of the agent and minimizing it down to just, well, I just need someone to open the door to this house. So I guess I'll work with you, right? That's not exactly power positioning. If you're an agent who's trying to defend the integrity of your commission and not be negotiated down on that or not have a client expect that you'll go show houses on a Sunday morning or Sunday night or... So how you market, I think the point you're getting at, how you market determines even the types of clients that you get, not just that you get clients.

Jocelyn Deal:
Correct. Yep.

Tim Chermak:
At all. Yep.

Jocelyn Deal:
So they already know me. They trust me, they've chosen me. So by the time that I meet with them at a house for the first time, they already know exactly who I am. And so it's just, we greet each other with warm welcomes instead of the awkwardness of meeting somebody for the first time because it's like old buddies meeting up. I don't know.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. And that's the difference too, because this absolutely affects your lifestyle. I'm sure you've been learning this in the last couple years, as you guys have started a family and now you have kids and you realize how important lifestyle is, right. It's not just how much money you make. Right? It's how are you making the money? So if you have the marketing campaigns set up, the way that we teach at Platform, it's like, this is the difference between getting a Zillow lead, right? Who at, I don't know, 4:00 PM on a Saturday. Let's say, when you're at the park with your family, you're playing with your kids, having just a picnic, whatever, a nice relaxing Saturday at 4:00 PM, a Zillow lead, you get an alert, you got to call them right away. And they want to go look at a house maybe that day or maybe on Sunday, whatever.

Tim Chermak:
That's the difference between having that happen versus maybe a Platform lead inquires from one of your campaigns, but they've been seeing you for months and months and maybe they do say, "Hey Jocelyn, I've been following you on Facebook for a while. There's a house I'd like to take a look at today. Is it possible that you could show me this house?" And then you now have the power to say, "You know what? I'm so sorry. I'm with my family today. Can we go take a look Monday morning?" And nine times out of 10, if that lead came through a Platform marketing campaign, they'll be like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, that's fine. We can look at it Monday morning." There's no rush because they want to work with you specifically. And they're willing to wait for you. They're not just going to call some random mother agent.

Tim Chermak:
That's a very subtle shift, but it makes a huge difference in the quality of life that you're then able to live. So as we look back, it's been three years now, going back to 2019, what have been some of your favorite lead generation ads? Are you running homes list or lots of listing videos or what does that ad stack look like?

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. The homes list are what bring in the most people for me. So which I need to update those, because they're a little stale, but yeah, the homes list for sure. Because they're targeted to a specific area and it's things that I know. Well, so I live in Franklin townships, I've got a Franklin township homes list. That one is honestly probably my best performing one.

Tim Chermak:
Okay.

Jocelyn Deal:
Because I live here, I know the area and I can bring in those people that are local to me too. And it also helps me look like the local expert too, which is nice. So you can customize your lists to basically whatever you want them to be. The market updates, when we were doing those before Facebook laid their law down, those also were some of my best producing ones too. So since we aren't allowed to do giveaways anymore that one's not...

Tim Chermak:
One thing we've kind of tweaked in the last couple months that you could try with market updates is you're right, that we can't really do big giveaways anymore because it's just a violation of Facebook's rules that they don't like people giving away gift card or whatever, because they think it's gambling. It's kind of weird, but whatever. But rather than doing a huge video, do a small business highlight, but take photos. So get, let's say, six or seven pictures. So if you were to go to, let's just say a coffee shop bakery, right? We've been seeing a ton of really positive local engagement, if you take, let's say seven photos and one of the photos is you standing in front of the glass case and with all the pastries behind you or the coffee shop behind you or something.

Tim Chermak:
So you're in, let's say, one of the photos, but the other six photos are just kind of up close pictures you took of the pastries or whatever that you thought looked the best. Whether it's the cinnamon roll or the apple fritter or if they have some sort of fresh baked bread or whatever, right. Because people love clicking through and scrolling through the photos there. So it's basically a hack to cheat the cost per click on Facebook because a lot of people don't realize the algorithm, the way it works is that if an ad is getting a ton of clicks, Facebook actually dynamically, in real time senses that, oh wow, this particular post is getting a lot of clicks and then they actually lower the price that they're charging you for the clicks. So not only do you benefit from, wow, the ad's getting more clicks than normal, but the actual price you're being charged per click goes down as well.

Tim Chermak:
And when I say it goes down, I mean it might go down 50%. So anything you can do that is kind of juicing that, where it's like, okay, if we know people love clicking through photos, let's upload essentially a mini photo albums. So it's just a regular post that has, like I said, seven pictures of the pastries you love at such and such coffee shop or bakery. And then you write a paragraph about why you love the bakery. And then if you did film a quick video, you post that video actually as a comment, a comment on the ad, like a-

Jocelyn Deal:
Okay.

Tim Chermak:
A video comment.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah.

Tim Chermak:
And so if you want to, you could actually put a giveaway in there in the comment.

Jocelyn Deal:
You can?

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. Facebook's rules-

Jocelyn Deal:
Oh Tim, you may have just changed the game for me.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. So Facebook's rules and if someone's listening to this a year later, maybe Facebook catches onto this. Right? But Facebook's rules don't really scan comments yet. Or at least if they do, they're not enforcing it. So things that you couldn't get away in the actual video or in the ad copy, you can, in the comment. We had a client who had... This is last year. They actually have this crazy life story where they escaped from a German Stasi prison during the cold war, he was arrested, trying to flee the Berlin Wall. They were held in east Berlin. And so, I mean, it's like, you could make a movie out of this guy's life. Anyway, he wrote this story about on 4th of July, why he's thankful to be an American and it's not just in a generic way.

Tim Chermak:
It's like, no, literally, when I was 13 years old, I was kept in a communist prison trying to escape east Germany. And now I got here and every day is amazing and Facebook's stupid algorithm flagged it as being a political ad. So he couldn't run that as an ad and it ended up going viral in his area because everyone's sharing it, oh wow, this is a cool, just inspirational story. And so what I did is I found a nice photo of him and we ran that. And then I typed the whole story again, as a comment on the ad and it got approved. And obviously, that comment ended up getting hundreds of likes and comment. But the point is, it was a comment.

Tim Chermak:
So at least for now, I mean, who knows if Facebook will eventually catch onto this, but for now that's kind of the work around is you can do that in a comment. So yeah. Cool. We're doing live consulting on the Platform podcast, right on. So what have been some of your favorite Jocelyn, what have been some of your favorite retargeting ads? So it sounds like the homes list are working well, specifically the ones where it's narrowed into, you said Franklin township. Have you done pool homes list, acreage, what are some of the other ones that have seemed to be successful for you?

Jocelyn Deal:
Well, I live in Indiana, so pool homes list won't work out very well, but I mean, we have beautiful weather today. It's 80 degrees to 87 degrees today, but we had snow earlier this week.

Tim Chermak:
Naturally. Yep.

Jocelyn Deal:
Naturally. But yeah, so the ranch homes, those are really big here and then the acreage homes. So those are my three ones that are my top producing lists. So the single level homes, the acreage homes and the Franklin township ones.

Tim Chermak:
So once we get into the retargeting side of things, you have a bunch of leads, you're getting probably a couple hundred leads a month. Now it's important to stay top of bind with all those people, so they keep seeing you pop up on Facebook and Insta, right? What have been some of your favorite Platform retargeting ads of the last couple years? And when I say favorite, I mean, which ones have seemed to just work the best for you, where they got a ton of engagement, either on Facebook or that people actually mentioned to you in real life like, oh, Jocelyn, I saw such and such video. I loved it. Or I love the ad you did wherever. Again, whether these are photo ads or video ads, which ones do you seem... Which ones have seemed in hindsight that have connected with your leads the best?

Jocelyn Deal:
Probably the personal moments ones, the ones where they get a glimpse inside my life and my family's life. And so I would say those are probably the ones that draw in the most, because then people, they feel like they're getting to know me even better. And seeing that I'm not just a realtor and that I do have a life and a family and something that I... A reason behind why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Tim Chermak:
What would be an example of a personal moment ad? And also if I could just ask you to define for people listening, because there's probably agents listening to this who are already in the Platfam that are well familiar with what you mean when you say a personal moment ad, but there's also tons of realtors listening to this podcast that have not yet signed up for Platform, that when they hear you say, well, ads that are working really well are personal moment ads. They're like, what the heck are you talking about? So what, in your words, Jocelyn, what is a personal moment ad?

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah, just something that gives them a glimpse inside my life, my personal life. So the one that we just did recently was it was our family photo from, Sage just turned one and Bianca just turned three. And so we did a family photo and then we also had individual photos of the girls. So then that way we could capture this time in life. And so I think I sent Emily maybe five photos or seven photos or something I can't remember. And so that's what it is. And people clicked through every single one of them. There's likes and comments on almost every single one of the pictures.

Tim Chermak:
Which really proves exactly what we were just talking about. That when you upload multiple photos in a post, people just can't help themselves. It's almost like the human brain has to click through all those photos because you want to see what all of them are.

Jocelyn Deal:
And who doesn't want to see cute babies. Right?

Tim Chermak:
Right, right. I mean totally, totally. And also again, even though it, I want to emphasize here that it doesn't make logical sense. So I'm not trying to imply that this makes perfect logical rational sense because it doesn't. But the fact that someone knows that you're a mom and you have kids and they've seen your kids, to be clear, this doesn't mean that they know you. Right?

Jocelyn Deal:
No.

Tim Chermak:
But they feel like they do now.

Jocelyn Deal:
It makes me more relatable.

Tim Chermak:
Exactly. And that's all that matters is that they feel like they know you because now they know. Oh cool. She has Sage, she has Bianca. I know that if it's a mom, I can relate to her about that. We could talk about our kids, whatever. And that's all they need. Most people care about those personal details, I think, more than they care about the number of reviews you have on Google or Zillow. Right. They'll maybe look that stuff up just to make sure you have a couple that there's not just zero. Right. But by far, the most important thing is do they feel like they know you because probably 10 times out of 10, if you have at least a handful of positive reviews, but they feel like they know you because they've seen those family photos, they know some personal details about you, whether it's your favorite book or your favorite movie or what are some favorite, local restaurants you like going to, right?

Tim Chermak:
Some other agent could have a hundred reviews on Zillow or Google that are all five star and they'll still pick you because it's like, well, I feel like I know her. I don't really care if this other person has way more reviews. I feel like I know her, so I feel like I can trust her.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. And then that goes back to what we were talking about earlier is like they already... I already have their business. I don't have to try to compete against all the other realtors because they've already chosen me. By the time we get to the first house, I know that I don't... Or if I go on a listing appointment with them or something, I know that I'm not up against all these other agents because they've already trust me enough in order to allow me into their home.

Tim Chermak:
Right. Right. So what have been some of your favorite videos that you've done over the last couple years?

Jocelyn Deal:
Well, of course, the one of me crying outside of my brand new house because of all the opportunities that I've had, financially because of this. But probably the other ones that we make fun of me the most about are the ones where I screw up my words, but I'm like, I don't care. And so I just send it to you guys anyway and then we're like, whatever. And then we laugh about it. So one of the first acreage videos that I did, I'm on some property on some land because you just talking and then by the 20th take, you're just like, forget it, just send it out. I don't care.

Tim Chermak:
Right, right, right.

Jocelyn Deal:
But yeah. I would say those. There was another one that I did, I can't remember, but another one where I just completely had screwed up and I think those are the ones that still to this day, my husband and I talked the most about. That, and the one of me having a tear come down my face while talking about Platform outside of my new house, because it was 20 degrees outside and it felt like it was two degrees or negative below. And the tear was just the perfect timing of... But it was from the cold, but I was also very emotional.

Tim Chermak:
I actually don't remember that tear. So now I'm going to have to go back and watch that video.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah, it was perfect timing for that. I couldn't have planned it better.

Tim Chermak:
That's cool. So what is your monthly ads budget typically look like? Because there's probably people listening to this that are like, okay, wow, she's grown from basically one, 2 million to 12 million, but is she spending $10,000 a month on ads? Or what does the actual ads budget look like in a typical month?

Jocelyn Deal:
So before I answer that, I just happened to look into my account the other day and I clicked on my leads or my prospects or whatever you guys call them. And I noticed that I've had just under 10,000 leads come through with you all in the last three years.

Tim Chermak:
Wow.

Jocelyn Deal:
So that's a lot. So I noticed I was over 9,000, but I can't remember the exact amount, but initially, I was spending I think $600 a month on ad spend. I think I kicked it up to $800 a month last year. And as soon as I start actually doing stuff for you all again, submitting the content that I'm supposed to be submitting, I'm going to kick it up even more because the more you do, the more you get and then the more business you get and then it just is just a domino effect and yeah. So I guess 800 right now.

Tim Chermak:
So have you noticed that there seems to be a connection between the amount of business that you get and the amount of content that you create?

Jocelyn Deal:
Oh, totally. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have near the year last year because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. So if you're listening to this and you're considering Platform, do what your account manager says. Hands down.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. Because it's an easy thing to overlook where, if someone wants to implement a marketing strategy, whether it's Platform or something else. Right. Most people-

Jocelyn Deal:
But they're not willing to do the work.

Tim Chermak:
Right? Most people think of marketing as being synonymous with lead generation. Well, as long as I'm getting leads, that's marketing. Right. And it's like, well again, you could buy leads from Zillow, realtor.com. I mean anyone who has a credit card and a pulse can buy leads. There are so companies willing to sell you leads. Right. But if leads are all that it is, and there's no branding going on, keeping you top of mind with all those people, it's just a bunch of names and emails, right? That's not really going to grow your business. You might get a... I don't know, a couple of transactions a year from people that you just opted in at the right time. And they needed a realtor right then. And they decided to go with you, but that's a really low number, low, low percentage game to play where you're just hoping that some of them are at that perfect time that they're willing to work with you.

Tim Chermak:
Because I think a lot of people, agents think that, oh, I'll sign up for something like Platform. And I'm spending this money on marketing every month and therefore my business will grow. All I have to do is sign up and leads will come in and my business will grow. And it's not that simple. Right. You have to create the content, the marketing homework that we give you, you have to do it right? Because, or else you're just going to get a ton of leads coming in who then aren't really seeing you.

Jocelyn Deal:
No. And I've noticed a big difference too in the conversations that I've had with people this last year because when I was actually putting content out on a regular consistent basis, the conversations just flowed almost on a daily basis, I would have people respond back to the auto email and auto text and I was just having conversations constantly. But since I'm not putting the content out there, like I should be, then I'm not having the conversation I should be. So granted, they're reaching out to me directly, on Facebook, through my Facebook account or whatever else, but not through the Platform.

Tim Chermak:
This whole conversation has the vibe of a third grader with their head down. I didn't do my homework to their teacher.

Jocelyn Deal:
No, it's the truth. You do the work, you get the results. And I didn't do the work. I didn't get the results, but I did the work the year before and actions speak loud. I had 24 of my 43 transactions the year before were directly from Platform or I could trace them back to a transaction that I had from Platform. So I also count any of the listings that I had from Platform that I then got a transaction from that, or that client went on and did something else or they referred me to something else. I count all of that fuzzy ROI that you guys talk about.

Tim Chermak:
Right. Right.

Jocelyn Deal:
I count all of that because had it not been for Platform, I wouldn't have had that initial transaction.

Tim Chermak:
Right.

Jocelyn Deal:
So everything equals.

Tim Chermak:
And that's really how you grow a real estate business over the long term. It's never about the individual leads or transactions that come in. It's about the long term effect of cool, you got a transaction. But now if you stay top of mind with that person, they'll refer you someone or they'll tell their brother or sister about you or their dentist about you or whatever. Right. And it kind of snowballs from there. So you've been doing this three years now. Have you noticed any agents in your community thinking about trying to copy you? Have they been trying to emulate what you're doing? Because you would think that if an agent goes from 1 million to basically 12 million, that okay, something is going on there. Whatever it is that they're doing is working. And so naturally you would think that other agents would start copying you because clearly what you're doing is working. Right? Has that happened or have you noticed people trying to emulate what you're doing?

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. I mean, I've seen some people try to do the homes list or whatever, but they don't have the proper algorithms or proper, whatever those little things are that you put the pixels or whatever that you put in there, they don't have that. They don't have the proper capture. They don't have the auto responders and everything else, you guys have set up. So it just is a list that they stick out and then nothing happens from it. Or the market updates, they try to do them they do them occasionally, but they don't do it consistently. Or another thing that I've noticed too is because you guys only allow one realtor per area, I've actually had people reach out to me directly. And they've said to me, hey, if every you leave Platform, I want it. So I've actually had two agents reach out to me, directly telling me that they interviewed with you all. And you told them no, because that's my market.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. Yep. I actually, I remember I was at a conference.

Jocelyn Deal:
He's actually my neighbor by the way.

Tim Chermak:
Oh, Paul. Paul, right?

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah.

Tim Chermak:
I wonder if Paul's listening to this podcast and he's just-

Jocelyn Deal:
I don't know.

Tim Chermak:
... start talking.

Jocelyn Deal:
Hi Paul.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. He was a super cool guy. I remember we talked at the real estate distilled conference in Louisville, Kentucky. I spoke there a couple years ago and he basically walked up to our Platform booth. We had there at the trade show and he was like, "I want to sign up for Platform." And I was like, "Oh cool. Where are you at?" And he mentioned whatever town he's in. And I like Googled it. And I was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. We can't take you as a client." And so yeah, that happens all the time. It's probably to the point now where I bet 80% of people who inquire about Platform, it seems like I have to tell them, I'm so sorry. Your market's taken. So whenever someone's area is available, I try to act excited and tell them, hey, this is quite lucky. Your market's available. We should talk about this.

Jocelyn Deal:
And then of course they think it's just a sales tactic or whatever on your part, but no.

Tim Chermak:
Totally, totally. Yeah. I usually have to tell them, this is probably going to sound salesy, but it's actually quite rare that someone's market is available. So you should seriously consider this, but there's really no way to say that without making it sound salesy. So it just is what it is. But yeah, I mean, I think it's proof that you're still working with us three years later and people are inquiring about your market and they're even telling you, if you ever quit or get hit by a bus or something, I want your market. Right. That's cool. And now you're able to use that to build out a team too, where you can actually leverage Platform, even in the recruiting psychology, because you can let them know that, hey, if you join my team, I have a marketing system behind me that can help you out and feed you leads. And you're not going to get that if you join some random other team, because everyone-

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. I pay for my team's photos and I pay for their listing videos. So I send those to you guys and I have you guys publish those on my account. And I don't... That's something I do for every one of my team members, because I believe in its importance. And so that's something they get. So that is a part of it already.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. And it helps them build their brand. And then they know that if they ever left your team, they would miss out on that. Right? That's a service, they just wouldn't get elsewhere. They'd have to learn to edit their own videos, launch them out as paid retargeting ads, which they don't know how to do. And that makes a very real difference in someone's business. I mean, you're obviously proof of that you've added $10 million to your business since when you started. So that's super cool. Now we're in April, obviously, as we're recording this right now. And so it's still almost wintery outside in lots of parts of the country. What are you anticipating this year that things will look like?

Jocelyn Deal:
I've actually already seen a little bit slower of a year this spring than before all previous Aprils. Every April, I've gotten eight under contract personally. And I just haven't had that this April. So, I've noticed that the market is slower right now. And I think that's just because there's not as many listings right now. And also the interest rates growing up and everything else. So, I do know that things, at least in my area, are a little bit slower, but I mean, it might pick up tomorrow. I don't know. It's just a weird fickle market.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. I think it's actually going to be a really cool opportunity for agents, not just in your area, but nationwide, because this is everywhere. There's no inventory anywhere. Right? People don't don't have listings or they have a buyer and it's just having a buyer lead, it's almost emotionally exhausting because you make so many offers and you're kind of trying to tow that line between convincing your client to be aggressive enough to win the house that they want. But also it's like, you don't want them to get into the range where it's like, you paid so much for it that it's a victory, but it's also a defeat because if a house is intrinsically worth 350 and they have to spend 425 to get it, it's like, well, is that even really a win if they paid that much for it. All that being said, I think something really cool is going to happen in the next year.

Tim Chermak:
I shouldn't say really cool, because that makes me sound like a horrible person, but something really interesting. I'll use the word, interesting. I believe that in the next 12 months, we're probably going to lose somewhere 20 to 40% of real estate professionals are just going to exit the industry entirely because I think some quit last year and the people who stuck around, the agents that are doing whatever five, 10, 12 deals a year, people that maybe they're part-time or they're full-time, but they're really not like producing a lot for whatever reason, when the market gets this dry, all of the easy deals go away. There are no low hanging fruit of just easy friends and family or easy people who walk into your office or an easy sign call or an open house. It's any transaction you get in this current market, you had to earn it as the real estate agent.

Tim Chermak:
Right. And so when it becomes that hard to get a closing, all these agents that for the last, I mean, what are we? Pretty much the last 10 years, every year has been better than the last. We've been in a bull market in real estate for 10 years in a row. Every year has been a great year to be an agent because there's been just a healthy, balanced market, pretty low interest rates over the last 10 years. It's been every year has been a great year to be a realtor. This is really, and then last year probably too has been the first years since 2008, that it's actually been difficult to find inventory if you have a buyer for example.

Jocelyn Deal:
Right.

Tim Chermak:
Right.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah and because you can't even find new builds either.

Tim Chermak:
Right. Right. So normally it was like, oh, if we can't find what you're looking for and we're looking at existing homes, then we'll go to new builds and that's easy. I shouldn't say easy, but there was always the alternative of telling a client, hey, we can always go new build. Right. And now you can't even do that because there are no new builds. And so like I said, you have to earn every transaction. I think that if we can fast forward a year from now. So if we fast forward to spring of 23, I honestly think somewhere between 20 and 40% of real estate professionals will have quit by then. They'll have found a new job because they just couldn't make it work. And that's both mortgage lenders and real estate agents because especially on the mortgage side, I mean, I know I actually personally know many LO's where they were making a killing the last couple years because it was just printing money doing refis.

Tim Chermak:
Right. But slowly, it kind of evolved to the point where 75, 80% of their business was refis and they kind of just abandoned their agent partners and stopped paying attention to building relationships with realtors. And they didn't really care about purchase business because refis were just shooting fish in a barrel. It's like, well, if you can do a refi and spend five hours of work or less and still make 5, 6, 7, $8,000, on that deal as an LO, why would you try to do purchase business when it's so much harder and so much more work? And so many more moving parts, right?

Jocelyn Deal:
So I have an interesting story about an LO situation or whatever for you. So when I first joined Platform, I knew I needed to get business under my belt in order to have a leg to stand on. And so once, I had a couple Platform transactions under contractor closed, I reached out to an LO and asked if they wanted to partner with me.

Tim Chermak:
Oh sure. Yep. Yep.

Jocelyn Deal:
And so they said, yes, did this with them for maybe six months. It didn't work out. And so I was shopping for another LO to partner with me. And so I reached out to the one that I actually had help us with our first home that we purchased. And he was like, "I can't believe that you've asked me about this. I've actually heard about Platform, yes. Where do I sign?" Without even any hesitation whatsoever, he already knew of you guys and was so willing to jump on board. And he actually had asked a previous person that was on the north side, if he could partner with them. And they said they already had an LO partner. And so he was so excited that I was with you all and that I had the availability for an LO partner and he's still with me.

Tim Chermak:
That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, marketing works, right? If marketing establishes awareness.

Jocelyn Deal:
I've had title companies tell me too, I love your marketing. It's so different from everything else. They just say everything that you do just completely stands out.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. I mean, hen marketing creates awareness, that's just a perfect real life case study of what we were talking about earlier that, even in the absence of someone comparing an AB split test of, oh, should I partner with Jocelyn on Zillow leads versus Platform versus realtor.com versus whatever BoomTown, Ylopo, Curaytor I mean, all of them. If they've at least heard of Platform to where, when you bring it up, it's not the first time they've ever heard of it, it's a lot more likely, but oh yeah. Well I've heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that. You know? So that's just a real life example of that working. But yeah, I mean, going back to LOs and realtors, I'm quite convinced in a year from now, there's going to be a huge reduction in just the number of agents that are out there because there's tons of agents that maybe this last year, did two or three or four deals.

Tim Chermak:
And that's just not enough to pay your bills. You can't earn a living if you're only selling three or four homes a year. And I think they're realizing, oh, maybe before, when I was selling eight to 10 homes a year, I realized I never really built a brand. I didn't have a marketing system. I was kind of just taking the easy deals. And now that it's really hard and I'm only doing two or three or four, I might have to go get a job somewhere. It's just a normal W2 job. Right. Because you can't pay your bills. And so the reason I said, this is going to be really interesting is obviously it sucks for all those people who have to leave the industry entirely because it got too tough. But for people like you, right, who have taken this seriously, and you've treated your real estate business, frankly like a business, right?

Tim Chermak:
It wasn't just a hobby. You treated it like a business, you invested in things like Platform marketing. Now this is actually a huge opportunity for agents like you to kind of mop up and absorb all that market share, that'll be up for grabs when all these other agents in your area, abandon the real estate industry altogether because there'll still be transactions happening. Right. And now there's way, way fewer agents that'll be chasing those transactions.

Tim Chermak:
And so you actually have a really cool shot to grow your business even more, as long as you survive the next year. And you just think long term, right? Don't think about how many closings did I get this month or next month, or whatever. Think, how can I put myself in a position where if this change is going to be happening in the industry in the next 12 months to 18 months, that I can position myself to absorb all that market share because I know a lot of agents that right now are agents might not be around 12 months from now. So what an awesome time to invest in building your brand, because you know that things will be way more open and for the taking a year from now.

Tim Chermak:
So being in Indiana, I mean, you didn't really have the huge highs of the housing boom, back in '07, '08. Have prices appreciated a ton there in the last couple years or what does it look like in your area?

Jocelyn Deal:
House prices have gone up significantly in the last few years. I don't know what it was like back in '07, '08. I was living in LA at the time and I wasn't a realtor, so-

Tim Chermak:
Sure.

Jocelyn Deal:
I had no idea what real estate was actually at that time. All I know is it was really hard for me just to survive financially because it made the entire market crash.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah.

Jocelyn Deal:
But as far as house prices go, yeah. I mean, so in a Platform client of mine, I helped them buy their first home. They bought it for 192 and maybe a year and a half later, I don't think it was two years. I think it was a year and a half later, they got a divorce. And so they used me to list their home. We listed it for 260, I think, or 245. We listed it for 245 and it closed for 260.

Tim Chermak:
Wow.

Jocelyn Deal:
So just a year and a half later, that much. And it appraised at that too. We initially had the original home under contract for 195. It didn't even appraise at 195. So they had to lower it down to 192. So just to show you how much of a jump it had just in that short time.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah, no kidding. And I think one of the craziest things about these last couple years, because everyone's predicting, there's a housing bubble, there's a real estate bubble, whatever. It's like, no, I don't think there is because yeah, it's very different. Everyone who's looking from the outside in sees that house prices have gone up ergo, there's a bubble, but it's like no, they went up in 2007 and 2008 because they were just handing out loans to anyone who could breathe. Right. It was like, oh you want a loan for a $400,000 house? Here's your loan, right? No verification of basically anything. Now, they've had actually pretty strict lending standards since '08.

Jocelyn Deal:
I had more mutual releases last year than I've ever had before because of financing issues.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty strict to get a mortgage the last 10 years. And so because of that, people have also been putting larger down payments. So most homeowners now have substantial equity. I think I just read a stat that the average American homeowner has over, and this is median, has over a hundred thousand dollars of tappable equity, meaning the average person in America could take 100K in a cash out and still maintain an 80% LTV on their mortgage. So it basically means, statistically, there's just zero risk of having a meltdown in the housing market, like there was in '08 because no one's in a position where they would have to panic sell and take a really low price because they have so much equity that even if someone lost their job and they had to sell their house because they figured they couldn't afford the monthly mortgage payments anymore, if that happened, they'd probably get a check for a 100K at closing, because they have so much equity in their house.

Tim Chermak:
So it's not going to put a downward pressure on prices, even if there is a recession. So, the, I think, realtors understand that because you're in the business every day and you see there's no inventory, there's so much demand, but no inventory, but the public has kind of a simple understanding of it. And the average person out there just thinks, oh, housing prices are high. Therefore, it's a bubble. And it's like, no, that's not how this works. But when you had mentioned 2008, when you look back to 2008, one of the craziest things to me is that it's so, so far in the past now, that you could have been an agent for 13 years now and you actually have never experienced a crazy down market.

Tim Chermak:
There's a very different class of agents out there now. I mean, agents that have even been in the business for 7, 8, 9, 10 years, they've never experienced a down market. And that's why I think this is going to be a really cool opportunity for true professionals like you, that have invested in their brand that have invested in their marketing. You have a database now you've set of 10,000 plus people in your CRM that as we go through this, because there's probably going to be a recession in the next 12 months. Maybe we're already in one, because obviously what the definition of a recession is from an economic perspective is it's two quarters in a row of negative GDP growth. So in other words, you don't know until there's already been a recession for two quarters.

Tim Chermak:
It's always a lagging indicator. If it's true that we're in one right now, that's a cool opportunity for an agent like you, because it's like, well, cool. We might be in a recession, but there's still going to be people out there who need to buy and sell a house. And I have a database of 10,000 plus people. I have a massive retargeting list. I've built up a brand in my area. You are really well positioned to actually do well during all this, while I'm predicting a bunch of agents will probably quit and leave the business all together, because they've only ever known the good times. Right?

Tim Chermak:
They only ever had to do the easiest things to get the easiest deals. And now they're about to find out what it's like when it's really, really hard to get deals and you have to have a brand. Right. So yeah, I think you're really, really well positioned for that. So as you look at the future, what are some of the ads that you would like to do maybe that you've seen other people in the Platform do in the Facebook group? Are there any videos or photo posts even that you've seen other agents do where you're like, oh, I should do that. That looks like a cool ad.

Jocelyn Deal:
I would love to just be able to give Emily the list that she asks me for. I would love to. My call last week with her. She's like, "Is there anything else you need from me?" I was like, "Yeah, can you duplicate me? Can you clone me? I just need to have one of me in order to be able to do all my like social media posting and do the videos and the pictures and everything else. And another me to just do the production side of it." And she's like, "Yeah. Okay. Let me work on that." But no. I guess, yeah. I would just like to be able to put out more content personally, so getting my schedule in order to be able to do that.

Jocelyn Deal:
So just at this point, any content for me is a positive because I noticed a huge difference in the lead flow when I do something. And so just with the two ads that she put out for me this past week, there's been a huge influx of conversations and leads coming in and everything else just because I actually finally put content out. So, I would just say just for me, upping my content and doing what I'm supposed to be doing is probably what I'm looking forward to doing, coming up.

Tim Chermak:
And one question that I love to ask in these Platform Show interviews is if you were talking to someone who was either thinking about signing up for the Platfam or they're already in the Platfam, and maybe they're a couple months in, they haven't yet got a closing yet, they're starting to get frustrated or they're starting to get anxious because they're thinking, wow, I'm really investing money in marketing now. And I haven't had a closing yet. I need to get a closing quick. When will this start working? Right? What would you say to that person of, just to keep perspective, because you have now been implementing this Platform strategy for nearly three years now. So you have the benefit of three years of sample size of a hindsight to look back on of seeing it working. Right? So what would you say to someone who's starting to get frustrated yet, that maybe that high hanging fruit hasn't started to fall yet? What would you advise them to do? What tips would you give them?

Jocelyn Deal:
Content. Seriously put out more content. I didn't have my first lead turned over into anything until I put out my first market update, which was, I joined April 26th, I think is when it was. And I didn't think I put out my first market update until June, I want to say, June or July. And so I finally had my first appointment with somebody in July. So it took me a good bit of time, but I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. So, yeah, I would just go back to saying, do what your account rep tells you to do, put out the content, put on your big girl or big boy panties and just get out there and do it.

Jocelyn Deal:
And you may be scared to do video because video is very scary, but people would rather see you mess up and see you than to not see you at all. So it's just more important to just get stuff out there. So I would say, just keep on keeping on and you can't fail at something that you don't try. The only way to fail is to not try. So this business works if you work it, all this other cliches and everything else. So if you're struggling, just keep trying and keep doing it. And maybe if you're struggling after a long period of time, then you need to reevaluate yourself.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah, we always say Platform works, if you do. You've got to get us the content to make it work. Platform works, if you do. And so, it sounds like it took you almost four months to get your first lead that maybe you met or that they met you for an appointment, whatever, because it went from April to July and probably those four months felt like an eternity because you were spending money on marketing and you weren't yet getting an ROI. But now that you look back on that, it's like, well, my business has grown by 10 million a year since that point. And now that seems so insignificant that you had to wait four months for the first one.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. I guess, okay. Here's a story, I think I like the best of my Platform besides the whole somebody opting in and now I have a team because of it. But there was a client who I showed a house to and then it was probably a year later they reached back out to me and they're like, "All right, we're ready. We found a house. We went and we went to an open house. We like it. We want to submit an offer on it and oh, by the way, we need to list our house too." So I showed them one house, but they had been keeping up with me in all of my marketing that I was doing.

Jocelyn Deal:
And I was showing up in their feed and constantly dripping in them and everything else. And so when they thought about it, they knew people in their church that were realtors, they knew all these other people, but yet they called me when the time came. And so I submitted the offer for them that night. They got it. The next day, I think, I was at their house doing a listing appointment and we got their house in the market that week. That was a $17,000 commission check that I got, when those two deals closed.

Tim Chermak:
And it's because you stayed top of mind with content and again, they wanted to work with you.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. But it was a year later. So I mean, stick with it.

Tim Chermak:
Yep. And they weren't just looking for any realtor. They wanted to work with you. So the point I make over and over and over again, especially for newer clients, even if you're not a newer realtor, but you're just new to Platform. It's that, I really don't care because it doesn't matter what your results are in the first three months or the first six months. It honestly doesn't matter. Right. What matters is that you stick with it six to 12 months and hopefully beyond that too, because I think the real magic often happens in the second year.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah because that's the year that I had my 24. Because the first year I think I only did six or eight.

Tim Chermak:
Which is still really good. I mean, if you got-

Jocelyn Deal:
Well, yeah.

Tim Chermak:
If you got 6, 7, 8 closings from the Platform marketing campaigns in a year, I think most people would be pretty stoked about that. But then obviously, the next year you did 24 closings that you can look back and be like, holy crap. This year I literally averaged two closings every month from Platform. And it doesn't mean obviously you got an even two closings a month, but just if you average that number over the year, that's what it amounted to. And that pays for your marketing for literally years.

Jocelyn Deal:
Yeah. And I haven't added up yet what my Platform was last year, just because it's been insane. But I do have clients that coming back to me over and over again. So I mentioned that divorce couple, I help them buy their house. I help them sell their house. Now it's been nine months and now, the husband has come back and we're helping him find a house now. And then the wife just, she's looking in all of my houses and everything else. So I'm going to be helping both of them buy another house. So that'll be four transactions out of one lead that I got. I've got an investor right now that I've helped him with some investment properties. Now I'm helping him with his personal residence. We just closed on a personal residence that they bought.

Jocelyn Deal:
I'm going to be listing their personal residence. I've got a house center contract right now. That's one of his investment properties. And now he's got a group of guys that they want to go and buy a commercial property. And because I'm with the brokerage that I'm with, I can do commercial properties too, which is awesome. So I'm going to help them do a million dollar commercial property. And this is just the start of it. And he came in from Platform a couple of years ago and bought a $50,000 house was the first one. And there's another investor that I have too, that I'm just constantly helping them flip houses. I think I'm on the... I just help them close their second one. They've got another one, that they're they're currently working on. So that'll be another one that'll turn over. But it's just the repeat business too. When those people come through Platform, they stick with you. They will come back when they're ready.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. You just have to survive long enough to get to that point where all the high hanging fruit starts falling. That's the message that I want to preach here is that, you're not going to get miraculous results in the first six months. My hope is that you get results and hopefully you get a closing or two, in the first six to nine months. Hopefully you break even on your marketing spend, but you're not going to get miraculous results in your first six months. That's just not the goal of this style of marketing. The goal is to set you up with all these relationships and connections, so that long term, things blow up because the right type of people keep seeing you. And then they refer people and those people refer people. And then all of a sudden, you have a business that literally goes from one to 12 million in production and you just can't do that by buying Zillow leads or calling expired listings, right? This is building a business for the long term.

Jocelyn Deal:
And like I said, I haven't done last year's numbers yet. But from the year that I had the 24, I did those numbers and I wound up netting, it was 96 grand or something like that over what I spent with Platform and on my ad spend.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. So even after you factor out all the expenses, there was a positive ROI of almost a hundred grand, after factoring in all the expenses and everything of running the ads and everything. I mean that's plus whatever the future dividends are from all of those clients, that'll refer people to you or they will have all their transactions in the future with you and you don't have to pay again to acquire those clients because now they're in your database. Right. So awesome. Well, I think this has been a super cool episode, both in talking about the short term journey you had of getting to the point where you're this successful and now that you've started to build a team, but also looking back and just realizing, I guess, the benefit of hindsight that, oh wow.

Tim Chermak:
Yeah. This has taken three years now to get to this point, but look at where we are now. Right. Compared to where you were before. I mean, that's a super cool perspective to take. So Jocelyn, thank you for your time today. I think this will be a really encouraging episode for people. I will give you the last word here. Is there anything final that you want to say to anyone listening to this, who's curious about Platform or who just maybe needs a pick me up? Is there any final parting advice or parting words you want to say?

Jocelyn Deal:
I would say if Platform has told you no, because your market's not available, it would be worth it to go to an external market. So if there's one that's maybe 30 minutes or an hour away or something like that. So, Tim, you might want to reach out to all those people and be like, hey, is there a market that's like adjacent to you because it's worth it. I would be willing to buy a market that's a little bit further out in order to have the results and everything that I've had with Platform. So granted-

Tim Chermak:
What's crazy is...

Jocelyn Deal:
[inaudible 01:03:54] but...

Tim Chermak:
Yeah, yeah. We've actually had people and I'm not making this up. We've actually had people who were moving and they knew they were moving to a different state. It was a general area in that state. And they actually picked where they were going to live based on what Platform market was available. I've had two people do that in the last year where they told me, we picked the town that I was moving my family to based off of what Platform markets were still available, where I knew I could sign up for Platform. So that's pretty cool. Well, thanks for your time today, Jocelyn. And we'll see you guys on the next episode of the Platform Marketing Show.